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On Saturday 30, June, the Pope Benedict send a 50 page letter to the Chinese catholics. Catholic churches in communist countries : Soviet Union, Vietnam, Cuba (remember John Paul II travel to Cuba), so with China, what's the problem ?

To open the debate, read this article published in the Los Angeles Time
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/asia/la-fg-pope1jul01,1,2466541.story?coll=la-asia

ROME — In a historic overture to China and its estimated 12 million Roman Catholics, Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday urged the Communist-sanctioned church and its underground counterpart to unite while also suggesting that the Vatican was prepared to end a half-century diplomatic rift with Beijing.

The pope was firm in denouncing restrictions placed on Catholics in China and reasserted his authority by insisting that Chinese bishops, priests and worshipers be loyal to Rome.

But he also laid out areas of potential compromise with Chinese authorities.

His instructions and commentary were contained in a 55-page letter to the Chinese faithful published Saturday in five languages, including modern and traditional Mandarin.

The Catholic Church in China has been divided since 1951, when the communist government required Chinese Catholics to sever ties with Rome.

The officially sanctioned church respects the pope as a spiritual leader but does not recognize his authority to appoint bishops. A government agency has assumed that duty.

Meanwhile, a clandestine church loyal to Rome has continued to function in the shadows.

Benedict wants to reconcile the two groups. He acknowledged in the letter that pro-Rome Catholics have been persecuted, but said it was important now to promote a "spirit of communion, understanding and forgiveness" that would help all China's Catholics "grow in unity."

"It cannot be denied that grave limitations remain that touch the heart of the faith and that, to a certain degree, suffocate pastoral activity," the pope wrote. The church has witnessed what he called an unacceptable "demeaning" of its hierarchical power through China's system of oversight.

"A church that is 'independent' of the Holy See, in the religious sphere, is incompatible with Catholic doctrine," he said.



This is very difficult! If we will consider the philosophical side of christianity, christianity should not
compromise its tenets.

The Catholic Church in China has been divided since 1951, when the communist government required Chinese Catholics to sever ties with Rome.

The officially sanctioned church respects the pope as a spiritual leader but does not recognize his authority to appoint bishops. A government agency has assumed that duty.

Meanwhile, a clandestine church loyal to Rome has continued to function in the shadows.

Benedict wants to reconcile the two groups. He acknowledged in the letter that pro-Rome Catholics have been persecuted, but said it was important now to promote a "spirit of communion, understanding and forgiveness" that would help all China's Catholics "grow in unity."


The Roman Catholic claims apostolic succession, thus declaring the pope as the only authority suceeding the
last apostle, therefore theirs is the only authority ,

how can the pope reconcile, the two groups? one loyal to Rome
the other group who doenot recognize Rome's authority?

That would be politicking and compromising and if Vatican
declares their religion is Christianity, therefore, it must not compromise the tenets of Christianity itself.

When the CCP took the power, he expelled all the missionaries and, the following years obliged all the different faiths to organise themselves in "Patriotic organizations" under the principle of the "three autonomies". That means for the catholics to cut every link with the Vatican. So, a lot young priests, by patriotim, admiring the fact that Mao Zedong has restaured the China dignity, have engaged them in that way. But the others, to be loyal to the universal church, went in an underground catholic church.

See a picture of the underground catholic church

No Linsi, the pope din't abandon any tenet of the Catholic church, and mainly the appointment of the bishops.

The two stumbling blocks of the dispute between Beijing and the Holly Seat are

1. The papal nuncio to China (ambassador)is in Taibei

2. China don't want the Vatican interfering in its internal affairs (including the appointment of bishops).

For the first point
The papal nuncio to China (ambassador)is in Taibei It is not the main point.

When the president of the Republic of China (Chiang Kai-shek) moved its gouvernment from Chongqing to Taibei in december 1945, all the accredited ambassador followed him, including the pope nuncio.

When one by one the foreign countries established diplomatic relations with Beijing, their ambassadors left Taibei for Beijing. The Vatican has already said that it will be the case if an arrangement is found with Beijing on the others points.

Jacques wrote:

QUOTE:
No Linsi, the pope din't abandon any tenet of the Catholic church, and mainly the appointment of the bishops.

The two stumbling blocks of the dispute between Beijing and the Holly Seat are

1. The papal nuncio to China (ambassador)is in Taibei

2. China don't want the Vatican interfering in its internal affairs (including the appointment of bishops).

but jacques

this is difficult.earlier the problem lies on how the Vatican can reconcile the two groups of catholics, one
loyal to rome the other is not.

Appointment of bishops are solely done by the Vatican according to their dogmas
and yet China don't want the Vatican interfering the appointment of such.

my question is how?

If the Vatican would allow china to appoint bishops outside
the Papacy then, that would violating one of the Roman Catholic dogmas isn't it?

There will be a precedent, other Roman Catholic countries might do the same.. hmm and in my own POV, it will greatly
affect the integrity on one of its tenets..

That is also the reason one catholic denomination in the philippines called the aglipay church is much the same with the RCC but they refuse to acknolwedge the headship of the papal throne,that made them set apart from the mainstream of RCC and if bishops would be appointed outside the papacy then it is tantamount to not acknowleding the headship of the Vatican.

am i right?

please enlighten me..

to further discuss one of the problems, and i hope many
would come to join specially the roman catholics whom
i pressume know about their dogmas please share it..[/color]


Who Appoints Bishops?
Who in the Church appoints bishops and decides if a diocese gets an auxiliary bishop with right of succession? Our diocese has twice had to wait six months to hear who will be our new bishop.


Canon Law #377 states it clearly: "The Supreme Pontiff freely appoints bishops or confirms those lawfully elected."


The Code of Canon Law (Canon #377, 2) legislates that at least every three years the bishops of an ecclesiastical province or a bishops' conference are to draw up a list of priests suitable for the episcopate and send the list to Rome. And each bishop individually has the right to make known worthy candidates

there is the (Canon #377, 3). Canon #377 ,(Canon #403)
To sort through these lists and assist the pope in his decisionmaking, there is the Vatican Congregation for Bishops


But in the end, it is the pope who decides the appointment of bishops and the terms of their appointments.
http://www.americancatholic.org/messenger/jun1996/wiseman.asp



Now going back to one of the conflicts, how could vatican reconcile this? Is it reconcilable?
that is the reason i said the integrity of the RCC law about bishop apontments would be jeopardized.

i just don't know how they would do this.

there is another thing the papal nuncio-

???

Linsi,

You rised a lot of questions and it should be too long to answer in one time.

I will answer to the question of reconciliation between the two churches.

In the official church, the bishops are elected by the priests of the diocese who are controled by the Catholic Patriotic Association, itself under the control of the Religious affairs bureau of the State Council.

But several old cardinals and bishops who went to Hong Kong or to Vatican for health reasons, revealed that they have been named secretly long ago by the pope to their position.

Now, we know that almost all the bishops elected with the chinese official way have before secretly wrote to the pope to get his autorisation and bessing for that.

In 1980, it's a French cardinal who for the first time went to China to have a first "private" meeting with the official church, opening the dialogue between the Universal church and the one of China.

Last summer, in my village, the mass was co-celebrated by a young chinese priest from the official church who was going after that to learn to Rome.

Il will explain to you next time what have been the changes in China-Vatican relations since the election of pope Benedic.

Just before the hand over of Hong Kong, afraid of what could be the interference of China in the nomination of the next bishop in Hong Kong, the pope John Paul II named a very young one. It was the then cardinal Zen.

Even if he looks to have a hard line, he has in fact an important role between China and Vatican.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-07-05-voa27.cfm