Re: how can we change peacefully ...

Easy, Army and NLD respect each other. Recognize each other as national forces. Both are patriots.
And start working for the States.

Meet face to face.. don't get scared.

shwe kyee

I like your ideas shwe kyee. I think your idea is worth pursuing. If I had a vote I would vote for you.

Would you or any blogger or reader know who could be the first Army person and the first NLD person willing blog a recognition like you describe?

nayting

Shwe Kyi,

" Easy " is the word so easy to say.

Thare is nothing impossible, but there is only that has not been tried or done.

Let me make it clear inn Myanmar " Ma Phyit Nhaing Dar MaShi Buu - Ma Phyit Thay Dar Thar Shi De"

You know as well as I do in in Myanmar history or in the olden days during the making of Myanmar Naing Ga Daw , warring factions in Myanmar have sigened countless numbers of peace agreements between them. And thse agreement were broken time and time again.

In modern days as well peace agreement were signed and broken . These agreements never last long.

" Da BO Kya - Da Bo Tet ". when there were leader changes, these agreements were ignored. Here I am not going into detaile, because I trust you know what I am talking about.

Myanmar's problem is not confined to SPDC and NLD alone. Some ethnic groups are being protected, defended, aided and supported by outsiders by all means. In other countries these kind of groups are called insurgents, terrorists these groups are being annihilated by respective government aided and supported by outsiders by all mean.

When it comes to Myanmar these kind of groups are honouired as " freedom fighters" or seperatists or the people who have their rights.

That is double standard, that is hypocracy, don't you think?

Myanmar's saying again. " Tain Mayong Ne Nette - Lwe Mayong
Ne Khette "

When you look back to the history, or look at present day events. They all were and are the same but you will see what you want to see. What you see can not be totally wrong , what you see cannot be totally right either.

All I am saying is Myanmars must change to change Myanmar. Myanmar cannot stick to their old ways of thinking, to their old ideas. Myanmars have to adubt new ways and putting them into practice without abandoning their traditions, tradition, customs and so on.

Having said that, if there are too many cooks, the broth will spoil.

In this case Myanmar needs one strong leader, who can govern or rule Myanmar. This leader must be supported , aided by all people.

Before the people can do that, the people must have the knowledge of their own country and see clearly what is what.
Awareness if you want to call it.

Myanmars had bitter experiences.

Myanmars are idol worshipers. Myanmars may worshiped Bogyoke Aung San, but they don't listen to him, then what's the use of worshiping him? How can you be a good Buddhist if you do not listen to Buddha? How can you be a good Christian if you ignore the Christian teachings?

Bogyoke is gone, time has change, Myanmar needs to change, but Myanmars still haven't changed.

Myanmar still doesn't know what the zebra crossing are for. Myanmars still go to the bush to pist and shit, including by the street. Myanmars still spitting on the road. Myanmar use
air planes like a bus, toi get on the plane they bush one another. Air crew say nothing, because they don't want upset their customers.

Some times agao I said that SPDC doesn't control anything in Myanmar. Everything is out of control. People are out of control. The people are doing what they want. In other word people are free, but they don't know how free they are, they really don't know, I am telling you.

" Easy " yes, everything in Myanmar is easy. That's more like it. Myanmars are easy riders. They know how to live their live, they are survivers. They don't know what they have, they don't know what they want.

These are just minor and patty things, but you can't ignore them. It shows you how disciplined you are. If you take them away out of your sight you will see major things.



Myanmar's saying is money matters most. Money becoming more matters in Myanmar nowadays. Myanmars have plenty of money, you can't guess how much they have. They buy everything and anything with money. including, the laws, the rules , the regulations and the procedures. Bribery, corruptions call it what you will. That is Myanmar's way of life, their tradition, their culture, their customs.

There will be more laws, more rules, more regulations,more producers, the dos and the don'ts. Can Myanmars take them, up hold them abide by them?

Why do they want SPDC out? According experts and it is because SPDC is violating human rights.

Let me say something about "Human Rights". You may not like it, but hear this.

When you came out from your mother, you had nothing on, you were naked, blood and other dirts all over you. Somebody, doctor or the midwife slap your bottom and gave you life, cleaned them and wrap you in a cloth and keep you warm.

That is in my view provisions. You are provided from the very moment of your life with these things. You will be better or worse provided, depends on your parent. What they can afford. You can't demand them as your rights, human rights. You right is the nakedness being naked, stay naked

When we talk about huamn rights in politic the same principles as your parents how much the government afford to provide the people, depends on how poor or rich the government is.

In the case of Myanmar at the moment. for the SPDC to be able to provide the people with what they need is being disturb or made impossible.

The responsibility of the SPDC as a government, and the responsiblity of the people, what are they?Even there was
another government these responsibility won't be lessen. The government and the people must share the same responsibilities.

You may say, most opposition are say SPDC is spending too much on defence. If There are no insurgents, no terrorist, no outside or inside threat to Myanmar. I believe that SPDC or any government of the future won't have to spend that much.

Then things will be " EASY ".

To change Myanmar , Myanmars must change.

Thunderbolts.

Thunderbolts,
What I said was true if both parties really want reconciliation.
We have three main principles of human being, honesty, respect and courage. We all have that faculty and we must use them.
If one side respects the other, why can't the other respects that one?

When I said we better give respect each other you responded with many reasons why you can’t respect the other. With all your knowledge and pre-conditions, you tried to convince your self not to respect the others. It is your problem I’ve warned you long time ago.
Things are clear but your mind was not clear, yours was confused. You have huge obsessions. That's why you can't see things clearly.

I have nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with NLD, in fact my father was from the army. I love the army, it was my army too. The only thing I'm concern is my children's future. I want to have good government to make my country to be developed.
But, I know the army is not a good government for the country and people do not like the army these days. It is simple. When people do not like you and asked you to get lost, you started finding reasons to stay on. You blame every body except your self. It makes me sick. I want the army to be honorable, respectful and loved.

Respect the people first. Everything will be fine.

Dear Shwe Kyee

When you talk about “ respect ”. what can I say?

To say "Mutual respects" would be much better don't you think?

Nobody has a right to tell me “ to get lost ” I have my rights. The respects you are talking about starts from there.

What if I say, “ if you don’t like me, go somewhere else or drop dead ”. That is your right to be where you want to be. I have no right to say against that. The respects you are talking about starts from there, I am afraid .

If you don’t see any honesty, any respect and any courage in somebody, that is up to you. The Myanmar saying is “ Luu Lo Mha - Nat Lo, Nat Lo Mha Gyo Ma” What shall I say, “ Khan Go Chit Yin Pe Bote Ko Le Chit Ya mei ” Nearest meaning in English should be “ love me love my dog ”, is that it? .
You don’t love SPDC, so you have no respect for it, whatever it does. If you love Ma Su Kyi, you have all the respect for her even though she is denying all the rights to the Myanmar human, the progress and developments of Myanmar, is that it?

You said, “ If one side respect the other.” I can accept your theory without any reservations, without any pre conditions. I know what a “ respect” is. Letfor get about me, do you have any respect for others, for SPDC for instance? .

But we are not talking about that theory here. We are not even talking about the respect between you and me. We are talking about the respect between SPDC , and NLD and other concerned parties. You and I are not relevant here. Sorry to say that. We don’t exit except here in the forum.

The National Convention which consisted representatives from all political parties, representatives from elected members of 1990 elections, representatives of Myanmar national races ( ethnic minorities), representatives from peasants and farmers , representative of the workers. Representatives from intellctual and academics, Governments servants and other invited guests.

I will leave it to you to compare with Penglong convention of 1947 and BSPP convention of 1974 and the recent National Convention to decide which is more democratic.

NLD not only withdrew themselves from the convention under Ma Su Kyi’s order but they tried their very best to obstruct that convention to the last minute.
1947 convention was influenced by the British. 1974 was by the BSPP. So NLD’s theory was NC was under the influence of SPDC.

“ Obsessions ” you were talking about my obsessions. You may be right. Everybody is obsess with one thing or the other. You can deny if you want.

Believe it or not, I have had no near or far blood relations in Myanmar Tatmadaw in the past or at present. So I don’t have to go against Tatmadaw because I lost my chair , I lost my privileges or my prestige. Esp[ecially I don't belonged to the elites at anytime.

You want honesty , you will have it. Honestly speaking if there is somebody who has no respect , he or she must be Ma Su Kyi and members from NLD.

I have nothing to defend or offend Myanma Tatmadaw which you said your father had served. You sounded like Ma Su Kyi when you said, “ I love the army, it was my army too.”

It is the smear campaign against Myanma Tatmdaw that I am against because I happened to be a Myanmar.

In my recent messages I mentioned many things among them was what British tried do to Myanma Tatmadaw which Ko Aung San had created and headed, before Ko Aung San was killed. .

Yes, again with these records against Myanma Tatmdaw, Ma Su Kyi happened to be an English man‘s wife. She started attacking U Ne Win and asking the Tatmadaw men to disloyal to U Ne Win. The British are not only supporting Ma Su Kyi, but also those who are against Myanma Tatmadaw especially the ethnic insurgents against Myanmar. What do you want me to think?

Honesty does not come into it. Respect does not come into it. Courage, yes.
Tatmadaw takes a great courage to stand out like this. Like , dislike does not matter. A man’s got to do what he’s got to do. That is what SPDC is doing. If you don’t like it that is your problem.

All I am asking is why don’t you study carefully what they are doing. Why don’t you look at them or what they are doing from positive angle for once. I could say the same thing to you , you are also “ obsessed ”, you cannot see anything good of the Tatmadaw which your father had served. Tatmdaw at the moment is an “ underdog ”.

It will be very easy for me to support the winner. Some people do that. Some people are ready and prepared to jump the fence if they see SPDC is the clear winner. I am not that kind of some people. Besides I know about Myanmar not through books. I am born in Myanmar and live in Myanmar, brought up in Myanmar . I know the differences of eras in Myanmar some by experiencing myself.

I think I know what SPDC is doing, I think I know why they have to do. I also know what some people are trying to do to SPDC, to Tatmadaw or to Myanmar. For me SPDC is honourable, respectful and loved by me.

What is that SPDC has done, you think is dishonourable?
What is it that they have done is, disrespectful?
Why/what is that you don’t love them?

I am not taking part on this forum for you to love me or hate me. Whether you love me or somebody dislike me is of no relevant. I am here to express my view, on the matters of my country, which is my right. If anyone do not like me , hate me , that’s their problem. That is because they are not grown ups, they are not matured yet. Theymay not even be Myanmars, you never know.

There are opportunities, obstacles and obstructions in Myanmar. Something like three magic arrows. All depends on the people who will use these three arrows. If they don’t know how to use these magic arrows, don’t blame the SPDC or Tatmadaw.

Some people are wasting these three magic arrows. In the end they are lucky to have back what is theirs.

The army may not a good government, but any government will need a good army behind him/her and to support him/her. Any government which the army cannot support will be in danger.

Ma Su Kyi cannot invite the foreign troops on Myanmar soil. No troops from UK or from Australia. Some of her followers have a great idea on this.

Democratic government of U Nu had to go because Tatmdaw could not support his idea to disintegrate the Union of Myanmar. Myanmar needed a government who will abolish the constitution. That’s where RC came in. No more 1947 constitution. BSPP government of U Ne Win had to go to give way to multi party democracy . When BSPP gone it’s constitution gone with it. Ma Su Kyi wanted a one party rule (NLD) she wanted hjer party to draft the constitution.
The illegibility of Ma Su Kyi is sear Shwe Kyee

When you talk about “ respect ”. what can I say?

To say "Mutual respects" would be much better don't you think?

Nobody has a right to tell me “ to get lost ” I have my rights. The respects you are talking about starts from there.

What if I say, “ if you don’t like me, go somewhere else or drop dead ”. That is your right to be where you want to be. I have no right to say against that. The respects you are talking about starts from there, I am afraid .

If you don’t see any honesty, any respect and any courage in somebody, that is up to you. The Myanmar saying is “ Luu Lo Mha - Nat Lo, Nat Lo Mha Gyo Ma” What shall I say, “ Khan Go Chit Yin Pe Bote Ko Le Chit Ya mei ” Nearest meaning in English should be “ love me love my dog ”, is that it? .
You don’t love SPDC, so you have no respect for it, whatever it does. If you love Ma Su Kyi, you have all the respect for her even though she is denying all the rights to the Myanmar human, the progress and developments of Myanmar, is that it?

You said, “ If one side respect the other.” I can accept your theory without any reservations, without any pre conditions. I know what a “ respect” is. Letfor get about me, do you have any respect for others, for SPDC for instance? .

But we are not talking about that theory here. We are not even talking about the respect between you and me. We are talking about the respect between SPDC , and NLD and other concerned parties. You and I are not relevant here. Sorry to say that. We don’t exit except here in the forum.

The National Convention which consisted representatives from all political parties, representatives from elected members of 1990 elections, representatives of Myanmar national races ( ethnic minorities), representatives from peasants and farmers , representative of the workers. Representatives from intellctual and academics, Governments servants and other invited guests.

I will leave it to you to compare with Penglong convention of 1947 and BSPP convention of 1974 and the recent National Convention to decide which is more democratic.

NLD not only withdrew themselves from the convention under Ma Su Kyi’s order but they tried their very best to obstruct that convention to the last minute.
1947 convention was influenced by the British. 1974 was by the BSPP. So NLD’s theory was NC was under the influence of SPDC.

“ Obsessions ” you were talking about my obsessions. You may be right. Everybody is obsess with one thing or the other. You can deny if you want.

Believe it or not, I have had no near or far blood relations in Myanmar Tatmadaw in the past or at present. So I don’t have to go against Tatmadaw because I lost my chair , I lost my privileges or my prestige. Esp[ecially I don't belonged to the elites at anytime.

You want honesty , you will have it. Honestly speaking if there is somebody who has no respect , he or she must be Ma Su Kyi and members from NLD.

I have nothing to defend or offend Myanma Tatmadaw which you said your father had served. You sounded like Ma Su Kyi when you said, “ I love the army, it was my army too.”

It is the smear campaign against Myanma Tatmdaw that I am against because I happened to be a Myanmar.

In my recent messages I mentioned many things among them was what British tried do to Myanma Tatmadaw which Ko Aung San had created and headed, before Ko Aung San was killed. .

Yes, again with these records against Myanma Tatmdaw, Ma Su Kyi happened to be an English man‘s wife. She started attacking U Ne Win and asking the Tatmadaw men to disloyal to U Ne Win. The British are not only supporting Ma Su Kyi, but also those who are against Myanma Tatmadaw especially the ethnic insurgents against Myanmar. What do you want me to think?

Honesty does not come into it. Respect does not come into it. Courage, yes.
Tatmadaw takes a great courage to stand out like this. Like , dislike does not matter. A man’s got to do what he’s got to do. That is what SPDC is doing. If you don’t like it that is your problem.

All I am asking is why don’t you study carefully what they are doing. Why don’t you look at them or what they are doing from positive angle for once. I could say the same thing to you , you are also “ obsessed ”, you cannot see anything good of the Tatmadaw which your father had served. Tatmdaw at the moment is an “ underdog ”.

It will be very easy for me to support the winner. Some people do that. Some people are ready and prepared to jump the fence if they see SPDC is the clear winner. I am not that kind of some people. Besides I know about Myanmar not through books. I am born in Myanmar and live in Myanmar, brought up in Myanmar . I know the differences of eras in Myanmar some by experiencing myself.

I think I know what SPDC is doing, I think I know why they have to do. I also know what some people are trying to do to SPDC, to Tatmadaw or to Myanmar. For me SPDC is honourable, respectful and loved by me.

What is that SPDC has done, you think is dishonourable?
What is it that they have done is, disrespectful?
Why/what is that you don’t love them?

I am not taking part on this forum for you to love me or hate me. Whether you love me or somebody dislike me is of no relevant. I am here to express my view, on the matters of my country, which is my right. If anyone do not like me , hate me , that’s their problem. That is because they are not grown ups, they are not matured yet. Theymay not even be Myanmars, you never know.

There are opportunities, obstacles and obstructions in Myanmar. Something like three magic arrows. All depends on the people who will use these three arrows. If they don’t know how to use these magic arrows, don’t blame the SPDC or Tatmadaw.

Some people are wasting these three magic arrows. In the end they are lucky to have back what is theirs.

The army may not a good government, but any government will need a good army behind him/her and to support him/her. Any government which the army cannot support will be in danger.

Ma Su Kyi cannot invite the foreign troops on Myanmar soil. No troops from UK or from Australia. Some of her followers have a great idea on this.

Democratic government of U Nu had to go because Tatmdaw could not support his idea to disintegrate the Union of Myanmar. Myanmar needed a government who will abolish the constitution. That’s where RC came in. No more 1947 constitution. BSPP government of U Ne Win had to go to give way to multi party democracy . When BSPP gone it’s constitution gone with it. Ma Su Kyi wanted a one party rule (NLD) she wanted hjer party to draft the constitution.
The illegibility of Ma Su Kyi is still a question, because among other things, she is not an elected member.

SPDC is here today they don’t get any respect from anybody, because they allow themselves nobody’s puppets. Nobody can to bully them, nobody can manipulate them, nobody can undermine them.

Yes true, there were many incidents in Myanmar involving deaths. If it is not in downtown Yangon it is at the borders. We are killing each other for 60 years, if you must know That is the truth, Who is obsess I don’t know.

If Myanmar sis not progressing, if Myanmar is not developing it is due to civil war which was started by the Communists and the Kayins and it is still going on quietly. Who are supporting them quietly, you tell me. Why are the revenues wasted, you tell me.

“ The respect ” should be mutual . Frankly speaking if you want SPDC Tatmadaw to surrender unconditionally, that will never happened. Ko Aung San did not let it happened. If Ma Su Kyi wants Tatmdaw to disappear, she has to think twice. If she created another Tatmadaw which will support her, she had to do it with her cronies , with those who will say “ yes mum” to her without questions. She won’t and she can’t get away from that.

I am not taking anything on face value. I tried and look under the skin or under the carpet. I can see Myanmar more clearly than you, if you don’t mind me saying so.

My experience on this forum alone tells me that the opposition is worse than SPDC. They are cunning, wicked, shrewd sly. They don’t even had the power yet, what if they had the power. It is my duty to see they don’t get it.

Today politic by the politicians in Myanmar is not for the interest of the nation , not in the interest of the people. It is for themselves for their personnel interests .

It only shows that when and if the opposition gets into power Myanmar will be worse then now, very much worse. SPDC will be “ Nat Koung Nat Myat” to compare to these opposition. Myanmars will find it too late then.
It won’t be justify for me to say that opposition is filled with thieves , robbers dacoits, rapists and liars just because there are a few of them among them. These criminal are thriving in foreign land doing the same with the same habits They called it freedom.

“ Ma Koung Kyoung Po “, if he is bad send him to school. Which school, monastery or ordinary school? Whichever it is it meant to educated them , it meant them to be clever. Instead the monasteries and schools are filled with all the bad ones, who are creating a lot of problems, everywhere.

Shwe Kyee, nothing personnel, being cheeky and talking common sense are two different things, you know.

Thunderbolts.<br><br>Post edited by: thunderbolts, at: 2008/01/20 18:48

Absolutely, the truth hurts people. No doubt, people hate you so much. You’re hurting people here by talking heaps of sensible things!
So far, no one from democamper side can talk sensibles like this – but shouting instead! What a poor thing! failure after failure, time to admit their dreamy leadership competency!

It is true that Aung Sun Suu Kyi have made more enemies than friends. It is said that she also down looked once the ASians diplomats that include Chinese diplomat. She asked people for doing right things but she herself could not avoid the pre-judements inside her mind.


Look at the 88 Generation group and others too, they shunned the chinese and Russia Embassies when these had rejected a resolution at UNSC by veto. They made destroyed many bridges even before starting going to the other side. Those are political errors made by the opposition side when we try to do politics with vision of &quot;Angels and demons&quot;.

In the reality, there is no angel nor demon.
The very first thing is to do politics in the respect of each other's interest. No miracle exist.

Ohnmar

thunderboltsss..,

I know you have a thousand reason not to give respect or mutual respect or care for respect each other.

Mmmm.... What about self respect? Do you have one?
You better start with self respect if you don't know how.

My say ta narr barr.

shwe kyee, thunderbolts

I wish to show respect for you shwe kyee and for you thunderbolts and Ohnmar and mg than. You are four people who speak your mind in this blog about your country.

Everyone knows that Burma-Myanmar is at a cross roads. Everyone does not know how Burma-Myanmar will change if at all.

In the past and at present one man calls the shots. That might have been useful and productive in some stressful situations in the past as thunderbolts has described at some length and it may be useful in the future however the present situation seems to me to be different.

The present situation is one where most people want to organize things differently. That's why the monks and the people marched down the street and risked their lives and risked being put in prison.

There is not much future in one person calling the shots because two heads are better than one and a parliament is better still. Where honest decent respectful representatives of everyone can contribute from the bottom of their heart, from their cultural perception, from their intellect and from their interest in the people they represent to the workings of the government. One person cannot possibly do that, especially someone with security skills. That is the reason Burma-Myanmar is where it is, because it's government is relatively stagnant.

In an army the general calls the shots because that is how army decisions are best accomplished. In a country decisions take more discussion, more insight and research and understanding, more color and choices. Successful presidents have a team of good advisers with their fingers on the pulse of the country and the country has a free press. All these contribute to useful decisions.

I am looking very very carefully at thunderbolts to see how he sees the future. Because one guy calling the shots is out of fashion. It's ridiculous. One guy is surrounded by people who like to take orders is the recipe for how Burma-Myanmar is today. It feels like a huge kind of prison to me.

Rich countries have a way of discussing matters of state. That is how they figure things out for everyones benefit, for their culture. That is how they get rich and support their culture.

I would like to believe what shwe kyee and thunderbolts and everyone else in this conversation want is a more useful way to communicate and decide on important matters of state.

Is it time for the constructive processes to start?

What people from the army will make room for such processes of government? How will that happen? It won't happen overnight, ideally it will happen very slowly and carefully.

It seems to me the spotlight in this blogger is on you thunderbolts. You seem to me to know about these things. I think you know the wedge that will invite color and light into the Burma-Myanmar government.

Are there wheels that can be put in motion? How does Burma-Myanmar move on from a kind of backward kingdom to a modern responsive and self fertilizing and growing bright flower for the world to admire and have respect for.

With respect,
nayting

Post edited by: nayting, at: 2008/01/23 18:10

Post edited by: nayting, at: 2008/01/24 14:09<br><br>Post edited by: nayting, at: 2008/01/24 14:14